Latest Surreal Forum Topics:

  • bad dreams every night ? (9 posts)
  • Why can't I make eye to eye contact with anyone? (13 posts)
  • What is a quote or saying that gets you through a day or guides your actions? (14 posts)
  • Which person do you think has made the largest impact on the world in their lifetime? (16 posts)
  • I was sleeping (in the dream) and my sister was cleaning the counter with a strong product. She went out and? (2 posts)
  • Who exactly creates the rules? (16 posts)
  • Regrets - should I really feel so bad? (10 posts)
  • If you had one wish what would it be (being rich doesnt count)? (16 posts)
  • I was running through a field of snakes? (8 posts)
  • I've had a few dreams recently about spiders being in my mouth? (9 posts)
  • College Philosophy Exam...? (2 posts)
  • friend had a wierd dream...? (4 posts)
  • What makes a dream so short and time go by really fast. Please answer SOON!? (2 posts)
  • How much do you relate to "Jungian Psychology" descriptions of the human psyche? (4 posts)
  • Sleeping and dreams? (5 posts)
  •  
    Author Message

    Freedom

    Members


    Online status

    273 posts

    Location: Yemen
    Occupation: Shaman
    Age:

    #119168   2008-05-13 16:42 GMT      
    (concept by John Rawls)

    And how can it be used to attack utilitarianism?
    In turn, how can it be rebutted (regarding utilitarianism)?

    Basically, I ultimately want to defend utilitarianism (and this was an argument presented against it).

    ThreeRashers

    Members


    Online status

    263 posts

    Location: Vietnam
    Occupation: Administrator
    Age:

    #119169   2008-05-13 16:50 GMT      
    umm good question--- with a lot of big words!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! rock on sister !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    RabbitBounce

    Members


    Online status

    299 posts

    Location: Poland
    Occupation: Astronomer
    Age:

    #119170   2008-05-13 17:01 GMT      
    the veil is just a metaphor for how ignorance blinds us.

    ignorance can't really be used to "attack" anything, but if people are ignorant, then it is unlikely that those people will strive to invoke happiness among all people, which is what ultilitarians strive for.

    ignorance can't be rebutted, because ignorance can't be proven false, that doesn't make any sense. if you mean how can ignorance be done away with, then yes, by having a utilitarian outlook on dealing with other people, humans would be able to spread more awareness and kindness through each other, and therefore push back the "veil of ignorance" and progress on through existence with clarity.

    GiddyUp

    Members


    Online status

    254 posts

    Location: Falkland Islands
    Occupation: Historiographer
    Age:

    #119171   2008-05-13 17:07 GMT      
    Rawls observed that pretty much everyone has a sense of self-interest. No matter who you are or what you do, it is natural to want to help yourself. This makes producing justice a bit difficult - if everyone inherently skews the system in their own favour, unless all the skews balance out you're just left with a completely warped system.

    What a rational system of justice requires, then, is some kind of barrier to protect the system from the above kinds of favouritism. It needs to be the kind of system designed by people who didn't know it might apply to them, or who didn't know how they would fit into the system. This is his 'veil of ignorance' - it's a kind of thinking which accommodates difference without your specific personal interests entering.

    I suppose it could an argument against utilitarianism in the sense that it doesn't really exist. It's a theoretical position... but unless you do have some dispassionate arbiter to administer utilitarianism according to whatever ethical calculus you are using, it can very easily break down and become corrupt.

    I suppose the best counterargument is that this isn't a criticism of utilitarianism but of ANY form of government and justice. Being a democracy or a monarchy (for example) won't eliminate the possibility of self-interested abuses of the system. In fact this is one of the more common complaints in the practice of either system - that a majority or the king is cramming their own personal interests down the throat of everyone else instead of in a way that they wouldn't object to if positions were reversed.

    BombDrop

    Members


    Online status

    294 posts

    Location: Ireland
    Occupation: Distiller
    Age:

    #119172   2008-05-13 17:46 GMT      
    we're blind to the truth, hiding behind our veil of ignorance. =)
    > 1 <